Stirring the pot
Your thoughts on megachurches.......
be honest and unafraid
be honest and unafraid
posted by wyofaith at
8:39 AM
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posted by wyofaith at
8:39 AM
44 Comments:
My actual experience of megachurches is really limited. We attended one in Portland, OR. years ago, probably when Rick & BR got married. Maybe not all tend toward the "Big Production Numbers" on a Sunday a.m., but this one did. It was okay, but I wondered if people really had a chance to make a heart connection with God, because it was so fast-paced. Why do we gather anyway? -- for us or for Him? And on a lighter note, my memory chip would never be big enough to remember all those names.
yuck. bleh and lots of other negative garbage..... :)
l.
I don't know if it's possible to have a monstrous church where there is real community and where the pastor isn't viewed as a superhero. I also tend to enjoy a gathering that isn't a consumeristic production which seems to be hard to avoid when a church grows to 5k plus. I just can't get away from thinking that 15 united churches of 300 could have a greater affect on a community than a single church of 4500. I could be wrong about all of this but my experiences with the monsters have not been that great so far.
15x300>4500. I concur, Nat. Your scenario requires groups of people to mesh, understand and cooperate. Certainly one of the challenges requiring the most genuine love.
If God is everywhere you look, why would everyone benefit from looking in the same direction at the same time?
is it possible to lump them all into a single category? the answer to the question depends on which "megachurch" you're talking about
one of my top 4 pet peeves is lack of detail
Chaddy, sounds like you have some details you're not sharing. Hmm, I'm feeling peevish.
Hmmm. Interesting question. I guess I have a few thoughts being that I have been on staff at one. I feel that if you judge any church simply because it is mega, you are doing yourself a great disservice. I'm sure there are some megachurches that need serious help as there are others that are agents of great eternal change in their cities and states. From my experience only at one, it has been in so many ways very positive. When I think of my church I think of all the wonderful people, people of integrity an character and vision, that I get to work with. I see lives being changed, people being saved, and marriages being restored.
No offence Faith, but I really don't care that much for this topic. Unfortunately, it causes all of us to judge the church and it is not our place to judge. It is only our place to encourage and build up.
Call me a bit of an etheral Jeffersonian, but I love the church in all of its shapes and sizes. It is a grand masterpiece that is beyond our comprehension, yet amazingly beautiful. We are the bride of Christ!
What's an etheral Jeffersonian?
Is it wrong to judge trends and movements within the body? Perhaps judge is the wrong word- using discernment might be better.
I see mega churchism as more of a trend, I guess- like the home church movement.
I've only been to a couple and I liked them, but I've never gone regularly to one.
Could being on staff be a different point of veiw than being a congregant?
As for details- I was veiwing this topic more in a blanket sense than a "let's discuss a particular church" because I veiw mega churches as a trend/movement/type of doing church.
We don't have any megachurches in Wyoming for obvious reasons!
This is interesting to me, can we keep discussing?
Zach, Sweets, sorry I did not put your church in the megachurch box, I guess because it didn't feel like the other one. Faith, what aspects of the megaCh are you interested in? For me the topic might be hard to talk about because I don't have much of a personal frame of reference.
"6 Flags over Jesus"?
Just kidding. I think diff churches serrve diff purposes - it depends on your goals. Not everyone wants to enter into a depth of community. Some want or need in a season of life to be an unknown or love BIGNESS. There is nothing to be ashamed of as long as there is a place for intimacy eventually.
Our family in its bigness has managed to acheive intimacy that some couldn't understand... My understanding of the basics of church are that it is to functions as a place for believers and non-believers in Jesus to come and be a part of a group that is communing with Christ - to watch, learn, and love together. I also think we are to serve and hold each other accountable for our actions. It can be done in so many forums! There are great megas and home, there are crappy mega and home churches.
Frankly, my preference isn't to attend a mega because I like to know my leadership and be known by my leadership in my community and I find that it is more difficult in a large scale body unless you are in a place of responsibility. This is not always the case, just my experience thus far.
Honestly i think it comes to preference. Im sure there are many people who enjoy going to a mega church. If God is doing good things in there midst and the person is moving forward in there journey. then great.
For me, I do not like the things i see coming out of mega churches and could therefore not grow there. i could go into deeper musing here but i don't think it would be benificial. becasue they are my convictions.
Zach, i agree that it is not our place to judge any MAN. but the organization of church we absolutely must judge. because it is an organization built by many men and women over many years. Over that time things become diluted, fragmented and confusing. Look at church history, Martin Luther certainly judged the church of his day. Like him or don't, i believe he did a service to the church by giving greater diversity to the faith. He saw places that the church had become complacent and was not willing to just say "whatever, ill just go with the flow."
I think that there are times and places to stand up and say to church large and small, "right your focus". If a church has become Budget Centric and the programs revolve around bringing people into the church to boost the revenue they should be called out. This happens more than I would like to admit.
JMO
l.
Our church is 2000 at our location and 5000 city wide at 12 locations so we are nearing mega. I love the opportunities to find your niche at a mega. more resources (money/talents) open up more doors. Still, at times i feel we need more resources for our ministry i.e. we have no budget and only one leader in 25 can make a power point slide. I would feel the limitations more profoundly at a smaller church. Intimacy is available for those who choose to get involved and be in a small group. My best friends are the ones who work alongside us in the marriage ministy.
I think the lack of resources at our specific location is due to the fact that 1) we bought a factory and remodeled it into a building suitable to meet in and 2) the majority low income population of our congregation.
But it does bring up a good point, I really think the approach that nat and unclerick were discussing earlier about splitting up a large congregation into smaller groupings that meet throughout the city works well. However, I can't claim a corner on all the good ideas in the world, so I wouldn't rule out that a 10,000 member church meeting in one place couldn't have genuine community happening if they were creative with the structure.
Often it seems like people have problems with mega churches because of a wrong focus they might have like the budget or something else, but I think smaller churches probably struggle with this as well. I have truly thoroughly enjoyed being at our church. I think there is a place for those who want community. I also think there is a place for those who just want to check out the God thing. Sometimes, people are intimidated to come into church, but if they can sit in the back where no one will bother them, than they can slowly grow in their walk and then they will soon see the necessity for community.
I have heard my pastor say that many new people will come and sit in the back for their first two years and cry as they let God heal them up and then in time they begin to engage with the rest of the church body. I like how there is a place for people in that position.
Let me pose a new question.
Who Hates the show THE 700 CLUB?
I'm kidding. I like that this is actually forming into a discussion because I don't think any of us need to be told what RIGHT is. I'm open to my worldview expanding but understand that I might think your opinion stinks. When I pose a question I want opinions, not answers; you know what I mean? Has anyone figured out that I don't know how to punctuate a sentence yet? Please bear with me those of you who are grammatically inclined.
East Coast Love
)kay, this is laura checking in, and let me just start off by saying when we discuss the "church" this is a very important topic to me, because i have such a love for it, as cheesy as that may sound, i love the church and how god designed it and desires its community. churches look so different, mega, mini, etc. and we are all imperfectly human, and therefore church would never look perfect. why do we expect this? why do we get so irritated with humanity? church IS human. hopefully the supernatural becomes a part but we cannot seperate the natural. and this is supposed to be beautiful. that is why unity can be so wonderful, not being the SAME but being able to be different and LOVE each other, THIS is church. ahhh. okay. i will stop now. the question should not be mega, mini, BUT, is there true LOVE happening? Unity.
p.s. Nat, I will try to forgive you grammatical errors, but, I might find it quite hard as I am not very good with showing love or being in unity...tee hee.
Oh, And Nat, let me clarify, my last statement IS the right answer not opinion my dear brother-in-law.
And I give you the right to think it stinks, but tread lighty, I cry easily. :)
laura
"we cannot seperate the natural from the supernatural in church and this is supposed to be beuatiful" (loosely copied)
That is so good Laura- way pithy. I think it is so true when it comes from natural people honestly trying to relate to a supernatural God. And that IS so beautiful-because God created it that way.
I also really like the idea of people being able to just sit and cry as the Lord heals them- often that is awkward in a small church because of the "exposed" feeling.
Another thing I like about megas is "generally" (prepare yourself Chad, this will be a blanket statement)the worship music is so good. IE: more talented players, new music coming through, bigger pool of talent to choose from.
I REALLY love worship, and even if it's showy I can close my eyes to it. But if it's just bad, it's more difficult. And Lord knows small curches can have bad sounding worship! (hopefully not ours since I'm 50% of the team)
It does seem that smaller churches force you into knowing one another in a closer way, but this could be wrong since a person can hide their true selves so easily.
Blog on!
I'm still not sure exactly what a megachurch is... is it any church over 1000? is it any church over 2000? 3000? Is it a church that meets all in the same building? Is it any church that is budget centric and entertainment focused? Or is it only a church that is budget centric and entertainment focused that is over 3000 people? At what point does a megachurch become evil?
Personally I think when a church's gross revenues reach $500,450 per year and their sunday attendance reaches 1,678 (meeting all in once place), that church immediately ceases to do good and becomes evil. Also even if a church has multiple services, it doesn't matter. Any sunday attendance of over 1,678 automatically makes any church evil. Just visit one on a sunday you'll be able to quickly feel the evil and emptiness from your seat in the back row. To tell you the truth, I've found that any church with multiple services automatically becomes evil and all good things automatically cease to come from that church.
I have to say, i probably disagree with the thought that you are somehow exposed or that you should hang back and not let anyone bother you in a "church" community.
1) becasue if you were brought into the church through community or one on one relationship then you will not have to walk that line becasue you have someone with you the whole way.
2) True community breeds love, trust & intimacy. It also breeds disunity, backbiting, crazy people, and lethargy. But hey, isn't this part of the journey? It can breed the best and worst of people, but all to the place of true intimacy (kind of like a marriage)
I just personally think we try and neuter the journey to such a degree that people get this idea that you have to be somehow perfect before entering fellowship.
I love the fact that in a small relationallly focused community, if the pastor is being an "ass hole" I can say to him.... "stop being an ass hole". and vice versa. we are all in this journey together... no class system mentality.
nat my spelling can go along with your puncuation!..... :) its part of my charm.....
l.
In my mind any church over 100 is approaching mega- ha ha.
Seriously though, do you think a person attnding a mega (just flow chad, big... a really big church)can't approach the pastor? I would think they could. BUT most people don't want to create problems or make waves so they Wouldn't approach the pastor with the A hole accusation.
And maybe thats the whole thing. When you long for intimacy you will create it around you. So-should everyone HAVE to take part in the intimacy/community? Is that the best way to do church? Or simply a way. Can anoninimity be good and Godly?
When you are small (we're talking 30 -50 people. Maybe that qualifies us as extra small) and you have a congregant weeping in the back row, that person will be approached at some point and asked how they are doing and if they need prayer by SOmebody in the church. I think this is a good thing, but being the person I am, sometimes I just want to cry and not be noticed
PLUS... we have people drop in all the time who don't have any contacts or relationships within the church. SOme have stayed, some haven't. I think many of them have a better experience than they expected. (As long as they don't come to the snake handling service)
In my mind, sometimes relationship evangelism is overrated- like it's slmost a sin or working against the plan of God to hand out a tract or talk about the Lord to a stranger on the street. Yes, the man with the light up Jesus hat is a bit extreme for me but I am married to a man that is so incredible at just talking about Jesus with people and its not a weird thing. I tend to think it's the people who have grown up in the church who have such a hard time with "evangelism" (or maybe it's just me) Because we were taught that if you talk to someone about Jesus they better get saved before you walk away. MOst of the gals in the bar LIKE to talk about what they think about GOd.
yea and remember the apostles didnt exactly use the friendship method. it was more like, go into town and either 1) cause a riot 2) heal a couple famous invalids 3) get in arguments in public 4) drive demons out of a couple famous crazy folks 5) stand up and teach some controversial stuff in a grocery store or coffee house and make people mad
then preach to the resulting crowd
please don't mistake my comments for relationship evangelism. I personally think that is a "sin" in an dof itself. Sort of like making freinds with an agenda to sell them Amway.
ugh.
Commmunity is a totally different animal. Our communnity here is based upon people that migrate into our midst for one reason or another. honestly i could care less if they ever get saved or become a follower of christ. but in reality i think they will because of the nature of family that has become adullam vineyard.
its a bit hard to explain, it relaly has to be experienced. and your right i don't think it's for everybody, and thats fine. honestly im glad it s not.... cause then I would have to deal with a bunch of people i didn't like!!! ;) j/k
l.
Wow. So much diversity in this group! I'm feeling like I want to celebrate it. Hope y'all feel the same way.
Levi, i don't mean to question you, i hear what you are saying about the fact that we don't want to have an agenda, but should truly just love people. i hear that...but...how could you NOT care if they beome saved? This is hard for me!! Of course we want them to become saved! Do you not believe in hell? Don't you want them to know what it is to live in relationship with Christ right now on earth? I mean, life WITH Him is a million times better than life withut Him! it is not my agenda to conform people but you better believe my joy comes from seeing people learn that God loves them and walk in that. After all, the word makes it clear that we are to share Him, if you want to call that an agenda, I'm sorry, but I will continue telling people what God has done for me and they too can know Him. laura
+
laura its ok to question thats what getting to know each other is all about!
I guess for me where it gets sticky concerning the agenda is when I take a look at the people I'm surrounded by. I tend to be surrounded by those who have been hurt by the church (christians) in majorly painful ways. They're very sensitive about issues concerning faith and people saving them. In our community we tend to see more growth and connection when we model love without an agenda. Of course we want them to know how Christ feels about them but for these individuals to get there they need healing which usually doesn't come by merely sharing with them what god has done for us. I wonder about this kind of culture and the differences we face versus those who were hearing the good news for the first time from Paul or one of the other apostles. I just have a hard time thinking pauls approach would work very well in Philadelphia. I think he might receive a substantial beat down from the south philly italians. Does anyone else have any musings to share regarding this kind of bible culture clash?
paul would most definitely receive a beat down. in fact he received a number of beat downs while causing riots and controversy and healing in cities... one time everyone dragged him outside the city and stoned him to death (they thought) another time the crowd was going to tear him apart and the roman guards had to come in and get involved or he surely would have died.
chad - I don't think that was his point.... :)
Laura - I think nat addressed some of the concenrs that I was pointing out. Honestly, when you look at it historically the thought of people getting "saved" was a concept made popular during John Wesley's time. I personally hate the term.
Do I believe in the Dante's Inferno esque Hell? mmmm not really.... I have a hard time with the thought that our all loving, ALL FORGIVING God, who is our heavenly father .......until such time as you die and have not said the sinners prayer, so you therefore get thrown into the pit of fire.... is a bit duplicituous. (it doesn't make sense, and if it does i don't want to have anythign to do with it)
As far as the whole saved thing....Please don't get me wrong, my entire life is built around sharing my journey with those in my sphere of influence. Not because i go into a realtionship with that purpose but becasue they are truly my freind and part of that freindship is the healthy exchange of ideas, in both directions.
I had to make a decision a long time ago that I would not make freinds with a person for the sake of evangelizing them. I had to ask myself a question "if I knew upfront that a person would never, ever come to know Christ as I do, would or should that change the way that I approach our freindship". Some would say yes. I.... for me.... say NO.
I know this is hard to grasp for some..... and thats fine..... but understand this is where God has taken me in my journey and I truly believe it is for a purpose.
jmo
l.
plus i haev taken going to the mormon church... :)
l.
Well, Levi, I guess it is obvious that we believe very different things, so I will leave it at alone at that. I won't even start on the whole Mormon thing.
Somehow the whole mega church thing got off course didn't it?
Sorry everyone!
real quote from Jesus:
"I did not come to bring peace, but a sword"
ps: i was just kidding about the mormon thing... you sounded a little nervous in your last post... :)
l.
yeah sure levi, we all know you're a mormon.
we accept you here, don't worry
Let me add to levi's thoughts like this. If I befriended you solely to "recruit you into Mary Kay". Wouldn't you feel it? Business is business and relationship is relationship. There can be a blend, but an invisible awkward vacuum often seems to develop. There is also the teacher-student format which also allows for the discourse of information, which is fine for some - but personally I prefer (and register information better) in a peer type conversation. Although, the teacher style can create the distance I dislike- maybe it's because it often entails only one person communicating.
Can you see why school classrooms made me nuts?
This is not to squelch or offend the teachers or past teachers in the blend here...(Yikes!) ;)
YO=u know I asked this question because I knew that everyone had different experiences and different perspectives. I think this is one of our big strengths as a family and I really do love (I promise Laura) discussing issues with a wide variety of perspectives- keeps things out of the ruts. This was great!
Levi- what are your ideas on hell?
faith you're such an instigator hehe
Levi- I was part of a Christian community (for 12 or so years) back in the 70's enmeshed in growing, loving relationships. What I took away from that experience was an increased capacity to love people who were NOT like me, who didn't always share my views and whom sometimes I just didn't "like". However, Jesus taught me to love beyond my heart with HIS heart these very real people. I became freer as I struggled to love the steel company big-wig and the homely little gal with the athletic socks who frequently picked her nose.(not made up...really) Each had a challenge for me - but, isn't that the point? Anybody can love somebody who loves them, but can we love the people who irritate the beans out of us? All to say, I did not have an experience of living with people I would have chosen, but with the people God chose for me and it was a good thing.
In re: to Dantesque Hell -- to me Hell is separation from God, more like being suspended in a dark, cold void, touching no one, seeing no one, hearing nothing, experiencing nothing ... forever. I see Everyone as God's creation, but we choose to be His sons/daughters. To me that was why He gave us free will. He offers us the All (that's his part of the Deal) and we get to choose Yes/No (that's our part)
What??? No CHICK tract "Burn in HAAAAALLLL?"
i know how that goes. YWAM was my own personal community hell.
l.
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